I'm back after being gone for awhile. I signed up for a couple of vines last year that didn't even come close to making it down to my name on the list. I see that we have 19 shows up on archive.org. I would like to propose that we make a concerted effort to move these shows in dead vines to archive.org. I have a show I just got from bittorrent at dimeadozen. I also have a memphis Hi-Tone OTR show that I would like to put up on archive.org, just have to talk to Troy Davis at sockheaven.net first, since I didn't tape it.

Anyway, what opinions do you have on this? Is resurrecting these shows doable?

Kyle

Hey Kyle,

Thanks for your efforts. If you're talking about OtR shows that were offered as vines here, it shouldn't be a problem to archive them if the taper is willing and able to do it (or give permission to someone else who is willing to). I usually upload my own shows to archive.org and offer B&P for anyone who doesn't have broadband, because fans get the music sooner and I really don't enjoy babysitting and reseeding the vines. Unfortunately I don't have time to FLAC and upload everyone else's.

Keith,

thanks for the response. I would just like to expedite getting some of these shows to archive.org so everyone can get to them. As I look through all 12 pages in Vines, I see lots of shows I would like to check out, but the vines died years ago.

I'm open to getting the shows ready and uploading them, if people are afraid of doing that. If we have to have taper permission for each show, that would leave out a lot of shows, including the one I just obtained via bittorrent.

I'm not opposed to vines, but they don't seem to be working here. I wanted to start some discussion about creating a system to pull in live shows and radio shows, especially of older material. Those really need to be archived somewhere at some point.

Something that's uploaded to bittorrent by the taper implies the taper is okay with online distribution, so I don't see an issue there. However, I am personally acquainted with several tapers who sometimes vine their recordings but do NOT want their recordings uploaded, and I think their wishes need to be respected (both out of principle and to prevent them from simply sitting on their future recordings). The people who tape Over the Rhine's shows with the band's permission are recording "for personal use" (unless they have made specific representations otherwise), and they have no obligation whatsoever to share their recordings with anyone, ever. Those who do share are doing a favor for the OtR fan community, and we should all be grateful for whatever method they choose for distribution, whether that's archiving, offering a vine, or good old-fashioned trading for other shows. The recording is theirs, and certainly no one should be made to feel guilty for not archiving their shows.

It is very frustrating to watch vines you're signed up for die or slow to a miserable crawl, but most of the people who seed and sign on early for OtR vines here will be happy to do B&P if asked. While it's more convenient (and less expensive) for most fans with broadband to be able to download shows, my feeling has always been that anyone who doesn't want a show badly enough to take the time and trouble for arranging a B&P doesn't really need to have it.

I'm sympathetic to what you're trying to accomplish by archiving the older shows (there may be copyright issues with broadcasts) and appreciate your willingness to package and upload the files, but I really can't condone uploading any shows posted as vines here without the taper's explicit permission. I will attempt to contact some of them and see how they feel about it.

I think all of Keith's points are spot-on. I'm also not opposed to Archiving as many of these as possible as a general principle, but I, too think checking with the taper would be a very good thing. There is still an ethos among some long-time tapers that physical music trading builds communities and fosters interaction among fans, and that that is more important than getting a show as widely-distributed as quickly as possible (which, of course, isn't quite what you're advocating with these older vines, but it is the more common, more current view for new recordings, it seems). Perhaps the show was offered here as a gift to the Orchard, specifically, and wasn't really intended for the wider world. If the person who shared it initially with that kind of impetus behind it (or whatever the rationale was--doesn't really matter) we ought to at least get their OK if at all possible.

Another reason for this is quality--the idea of Archiving a show from a copy of possibly unknown generation worries me a bit. Sure, the fact that these are vines should cut down on the problems that can creep into this, but if the copy used to prepare the FLAC files is a copy from a friend's copy of a set of mp3s made from the original vine disc that had been scratched three users earlier but not badly enough to complain about it . . . well, you get the idea. I'm not sure that everyone is as concerned (euphemism for anal) with using EAC for digital audio extraction, or burning DAO at slower speeds as some of us Much better to work from the master or a newly burned copy of the master if at all possible and avoid the avoidable clicks, pops, gaps, etc. that seem to inevitably creep in unless lossless formats are used from the get-go.

Those are my thoughts, anyway. I don't have very many older shows, so I'm of no use for this, but I agree it would be nice to have them available.

Looking at many of the vines posted here, I think many of them were not started by the original taper. I don't have any problems at all with consulting the taper first. My post was to just spur discussion of trying to pull as many shows as possible and put them in the archive. While it is frustrating to wait forever on a vine, my main reason for bringing this up is to have a current and up to date list of available shows in the trading community.

Have you contacted people that have already received the discs for the vines you're interested in to request a B&P or trade? I bet that would be the fastest way to get these at this point.

As I said, my main concern was getting the shows archived for everyone. Yes, I can start emailing and setting up B&P. I don't mind that at all. I just feel it's time to step up and get these shows organised, and if we can, put then in the archive for the benefits of all.

I have no problem with someone uploading my recordings to archive.org. In fact, I would love for someone to do it. I would, but I don't have the time or resources to convert everything to FLAC and upload it.

I would offer a word of caution though to please check with me first if you upload any of the vines I have seeded. Not all of them were recorded by me and I can only give permission for the ones I recorded.

Jeff

Many thanks, Jeff!

I've been trying to contact frequent seeders Erik, Tracy and Sinoel via email, so far without any response.