Maybe it's cause I'm kid-less, but I'm kinda indifferent to the following article. I mean, "there's no santa clause" has been said/acted out/suggested in SO MANY movies and shows that I'm having a hard time understanding the level of 'bothered' with this. It's a tv show based on the childhood of Chris Rock... Chris Rock. The man who suggested that instead of verbal punishment and grounding kids, parents should just tell their kids "The Toss Salad Man" is coming (gawd, i LOVE that stand-up piece).

I remember a write-up or two from the media re: the "concern" of Chris Rock hosting the Oscars last year because of his line of humor. It's Chris Rock... is there really room for surprise with this?

I don't know, not having kids pry invalidates my opinion 'n all but I didn't start the thread cause I think it's silly and am expecting unanimous agreement responses. I'm genuinely interested in the different opinions of this. 'Specially from parents.

Chris Rock's Show Says Santa Doesn't Exist

M,
I am so dense, I guess I just can't figure out whether you are 'for' or 'against' the myth of Santa Claus.

In my opinion, (which matter not at all in the grand scheme), I totally disagree with the lie that many of us tell our children. 30+ years ago, I told my children there was a Santa Claus and it is something I came to deeply regret in later years.

Hindsight is 20/20 but I can no longer condone a bold face deception even to the littlest child.
A fairy tale is one thing. If the kid is told that Santa is a made-up pretend story but the presents really come from real people...not a fat man coming down a chimney, than I'm OK with that.

I reiterate:
BahhumbugT xo

I'm super-ambivalent about Santa Claus (I remember thinking it was really strange that all these adults wanted me to pretend I believed in something that was clearly a weird lie), but I really appreciated this magnanimous take on Santa.

I don't even know if I'm 'for' or 'against' the myth as I've never really given it a lot of thought - it's the "i don't have kids & i don't want kids" thing. And I don't know/remember when or how I found out/was told there was no Santa Clause.

Sorry for the confusion, Trudy. I guess it's cause I wasn't asking from the do you tell them there's no santa or do you not tell them there's no santa angle. It was more, do you get upset when a tv show (amusingly titled "everybody hates christmas") states there is no santa, or do you not get upset?

I liked that, Katherine. Thanks for the link.

Unless veto'd by my wife, I don't see myself perpetuating the myth of Santa Claus for our kid(s) if we have any...

~fff - np: a whiny pup who doesn't like the blow dryer...

Well, first, Michelle ... please feel okay with your opinions, in spite of your parental status. You're smart and you're entitled to comment on whatever you want.

I don't see Santa as a myth, per se. As a relatively new dad, I've come to the conclusion that Santa, the spirit of such, is real. I'm okay with letting the guy in the red suit embody this for a while until I have to explain the concept to my daughter. Santa is about giving, reward for good behavior and being generous to others. When I tell Abby that there is no Santa, I'll make sure to say something along the lines of "the guy at the North Pole is fake, but here's what's real ...." Call me naive, but that's how I plan to play it out.

The thing is, and this is certainly no endorsement, is that our whole culture -- every aspect of it -- screams Santa. As a parent telling your kid there's no Santa, well, you're swimming upstream and causing some major dissonance in your child. Not only will they be forced to fake shared enthusiasm, they'll feel left out of the fun too.

As far as the Chris Rock show goes, any parent that lets a kid who believe in Santa watch it ... oh well. Television comes with built-in censoring devices: buttons to change the channel, mute it or turn it off.

See, people get pissed when they're forced to do parenting. That's the reason for the outcry.

i love fred.

very well put -- i still believe in the meaning behind santa.

working with children in day care for all of those years did give me the insight to kids who were told that santa didn't exist -- they *did* feel left out of the parties and things. they were also the ones who were the most scared when the big red guy came and handed out gifts.

i don't see any harm in the *lie* of santa, and the easter bunny, and the tooth fairy, etc. when used correctly, these figures can be used to instill some pretty good morals without using abstract terms that little ones aren't able to process. such as the spirit of giving.

i love santa.

and i *also* agree with the outrage of parents who let their kids watch certain tv shows and movies. when i have four year olds coming up to me and crying because they watched _the mummy_ the other night -- i want to strangle their parents. seriously -- it's called accountability. you have kids, be responsible about them.

Marx Brothers - A Night at the Opera Quotes (1935)

(Groucho) Otis Driftwood: It's all right, that's, that's in every contract. That's, that's what they call a sanity clause.
Fiorello: Ha ha ha ha ha... you can't fool me. There ain't no sanity clause.

Wow.... to all of this. Fred, I don't agree with you ONE BIT.... I agree with you 100%.

oh, and Merry Christmas....

Right said Fred... err, Fred said right.

::looks at John's signature::

then then

I see the harm in the lie. It's called conditioning, indoctrination, etc. If you're used to people lying to you and making crap up from the time you're a wee babe, well, it ain't no big deal.

And I also see the harm on the face of a small child who has just learned that Santa is a lie, and on the face of the parent that seeks to console the inconsolable child. Just don't do it. Don't lie to your kids about anything. Lying is wrong, no two ways about it. A five year old could tell you that.

And finally, IMO, the spirit of the season needs no representation, not even in the form of a fat, furry hoarder. Verbs, not nouns, are what make the spirit of the season evident.

Thanks for your post, Anna. I was truly feeling alone out here in the real world.
For those who think I am the grinch, please don't think I am not in favor of fantasy or make-believe or cartoons where animals walk, speak, dress in human clothing and feel emotion.
I love pretend and fantasy very much. I think it broadens imagination and allows us a fun escape from serious matters.
I purchased the movie 'The Polar Express'. It was a wonderful fantasy story for children and adults.
As long as the kid knows it's make-believe fun and not real life.

But when people tell children that Santa is real and comes down a chimney to bring gifts....then the child sees a hundred poorly disguised men in various places all looking very different....and when the child lives in a high-rise apt and wonders if they won't get gifts because they don't have a fireplace....or a child that is naughty still gets gifts even though Santa has made a list of "good" and "bad" children....and each parent thinks of some 'round-about comeback when the child questions 'how can that be?.....I wonder how many lies is too many? Children, especially in todays world of high tech certainly have doubts about this unlikely event.
And where is the humility in receiving? There is no one's feeling to hurt if the kid doesn't get what he wants or doesn't like his gift. Santa is not there so there is no one to thank. The gifts become expected.
I would rather see a gift exchange between the child and his loved ones. This seems a more realistic lesson in giving and receiving.
My daughters children (my grandchildren) get so many gifts at christmas they are overwhelmed. To me that is ludicrous.
I personally would rather my child be able to trust that what I tell him is the honest truth as I know it in his age appropriate language. To me that is a foundation of trust....the most important thing a kid under the age of 5 can learn.

Rant over...I apologise if I offended.

When I was 19, I WAS Santa Claus...

I'm with you, Trudy.
I didn't grow up believing in Santa but I've never been one to tell kids he's not real, either. I don't want to be responsible for causing some poor little kid grief, I guess. but I don't understand how so many parents can lie to their kids like this. not just that but it's like our whole society is bent on perpetuating the hoax. why??
I'm all for the spirit of giving and stuff, and maybe other people "use" Santa differently, but I don't see how "tell Santa what you want" fosters a spirit of giving. it's all about getting, baby.
as far as having some kind of fantasy, magic, and imaginative elements in a kid's life, I think that's an integral part of childhood that even adults shouldn't lose, but Santa is...like a puppet with humans operating the strings. I would think that when kids find out their magic is pulled by people, it would tear down, not foster, their imaginations and sense for fantasy. *shrug*

*ducks and runs*

wtf so are you guys saying there is no santa?

BUT Norad is tracking him tonight!

I still believe and I'm 27.
He doesn't have to leave me gifts for me to believe he exists. He exists in my heart

santa was riding his harley through littleton today.

Replace Santa here with "God," and you may be able to figure the puzzle out. It's just "spiritual" practice. And God, for a lot of people, is all about them getting, despite the lip service to giving.

You're welcome, Trudes. Never feel alone, for you are the mother of many. I cherish your desperate and earnest heart.

I remember exactly when I learned that Santa wasn't really Santa, and I don't remember being traumatized at all. Of course, mom and dad never really made a huge issue of the Santa thing. What I do love about the Santa story is the lore that goes with it. As Annna said in another post, it's about the spirituality/goo thing. If you'd like to know more, just follow the Holly King and Oak King to learn more.

Like others, I dislike the whole commercialism of it all ... yet there is something magikal about the sparkle in a small child's eye that tugs at my heart. Afterall, I have always loved magik.

Cher

I did not tell my kids the Santa lie, which I felt was too powerful in our culture to be considered a simple myth, because I was uncomfortable with some of the Christlike characteristcs so casually bestowed upon Santa - especially his omnipresence.

He knows if you've been sleeping, he knows when you're awake...he watches you all year long, knows everything you are doing.

Worse yet was what I would see with the lines up to 100 people/children long with crying children forced to sit on a strange man's lap. To me, this is abuse. Just because somebody puts a costume on does not make them "safe", and yet, parents do this.

I read my kids the Twas the Night Before Christmas story, and did take the older one to walk up to a guy dressed as the Santa character in a garden center. The Santa asked him what he wanted for Christmas, and my son replied, "I need a light bulb for my flashlight, that's about all". Quite honestly, I think he thought the Santa would find one for him in the store.

Christmas was not less fun or reduced by the lack of Santa. They didn't miss out. In fact, we live in an area where there is a large Jewish population, and my kids have enjoyed participating with their friends in aspects of Jewish and Christian holidays.

I like your approach, PTG, and your son's response. Kids love magic, yes, but they're also figuring out reality, which isn't always such a weird, scary place. I still think back to my cousin, given her own snow shovel at age 3, and her exclamation "it's just what I've always needed!" She sparkled. I think there's more magic in reality than many people realize. I love that children can make things fantastic. Charming as the Santa mythology might seem, I don't think they need it.

I don't remember believing in Santa Claus. I'm also highly uncomfortable with the idea of lying. I'm the sort of person who will answer "why is the sky blue?" with "I'm not sure, but I'm sure there's a book at the library that can answer your question," rather than respond with some fanciful non-answer worthy of Calvin's dad. I just don't want to lie. Ever. I even try to tell the truth about big things that kids supposedly aren't supposed to know about, figuring that if they ask about it, they might as well get the truth. Filtered truth, perhaps, and certainly shaken down to their vocabulary level, but truth.

There is no truth in Santa. Why not try embodying some of his realistic ideals myself? If he's about generosity and goodwill and a pleasant disposition, or if Jesus is all about love, why not put these things into practice? "Love is a verb," says the dictionary (and a dcTalk song ca FAL -- anyone want the Complete dcTalk Video Collection from the Jesus Freak era? I've got that). In order to impart the meaning of a verb, it must be demonstrated. I think the role of demonstration belongs to me and other real people, and not to a mythological figure painted red by Coca-Cola.

The only point here I agree with is that children really do feel left out when their peers are part of something and they are not. This is unfortunate, but I don't think it's an adequate reason to perpetuate the Santa myth. I teach the children over whom I have authority the truth. I think it's better to be armed with truth amongst the deluded than to stumble around with a blindfold on. Perhaps if more parents would let this myth die, rather than stumble around in the attic with heavy boots and a sleighbell to keep it alive, this would cease to be an issue.

I'm just creeped out by the brainwashing, which I don't believe to be predominantly Christian, myself. The Canada Post Santa program (postal code HOH OHO), the men at the mall, the books, NORAD, the TV specials in which some old grump is imbued with Christmas spirit and discovers there really is a Santa Claus... what the hell? This level of propaganda saturation truly disturbs me.

Please don't take offense, but I must play Devil's Advocate here. There is no truth in Santa? Did you not read Polar Express? When Santa originated, it wasn't about commercialism or Coca-Cola. It was about believing ... in the magik whatever magik in which we choose to believe. I as a pagan can more easily believe in the idea/magik of Santa than I can in say creationism or the resurrection.

I think that what or how parents choose to present XMas to their children is their business not mine.

How sad that this part of XMas magik has become an issue. How is a man in a red costume delivering presents around the world any harder to accept than a virgin birth? Again, I'm not trying to offend ... simply trying to understand the difference.



Well, there are many folks from around the nation who send mail to the PO of little Santa Claus, IN in order to have that post mark on the envelopes who would disagree with you on the propaganda thing. And while it's now known as Holiday World, when I was growing up, the theme park at Santa Claus was known as Santa Claus Land.

IMO, Santa Claus, the XMas story, Scrooge and Tiny Tim ALL represent the magik and good will of the season. What sucks is that so many fail to keep it close to heart throughout the year. Maybe if that would ever happen, we wouldn't need such reminders.

Cher

I agree. But again, where I live the public schools have off for the Jewish holidays, Yom Kippur, Rosh Hoshonnah, as well as the fact that almost 15% of the children in our district are Asian, many of whom are not Christian but were aware of the Santa story.

I didn't believe in using the lie of Santa's watching them all the time as some kind of power that I could wield over them in order to "make them behave", nor would I want to, as I had seen parents seemingly delight in having this "weapon", then would brag about it, and the power they had in fanning the flames of anxiety with the coming Christmas.

Instead, I adopted the Jewish custom of giving my children a gift a day - albeit small, wrapped gifts like a stocking stuffer sized box of Legos, for example - during Hannukah (depending on when it fell) or for several days leading up to Christmas. We called them "early Christmas presents".

My kids did not have false expectations that Santa might bring them gifts that we couldn't afford, nor did they feel that their behavior was somehow rated by Santa as "less than" some of the rich first grade, 6 or 7 year-od bullies in the district who got personal TV's and the latest, hard-to-find game system for Christmas.

I'm assuming that you mean they are Asian-Americans. Whether they are Christian or not, why wouldn't they be aware of the Santa story as it is nation-wide?

Let's replace a couple of words in the above statement:

I didn't believe in using the lie of God's watching them all the time as some kind of power that I could wield over them in order to "make them behave", nor would I want to, as I had seen Christians seemingly delight in having this "weapon", then would brag about it, and the power they had in fanning the flames of anxiety with the coming Christmas.

Lord knows, I know about being a victim of those fanned flames of anxiety when it comes to Christianity.



In Christianity it's known as an Advent Calendar.



Again, it's just my opinion, but kids have been dealing with this behavior for years, and that is what I believe is the major krux of the whole Santa or not to Santa thing. I don't think it's really about Santa at all but rather the level of importance that "adults" choose to bestow on him.

Just more of my 2 cents worth.

No offense is meant.

Cher

To clarify, Cher, the diversity where I live is such that Christian children who are raised knowing that Santa is a storybook character and NOT an omnipresent, flamboyant-dressing guy who magically builds Playstations and TV's and gives the more expensive stuff to the rich kids, these Christian children, such as mine, were not alone. Perhaps 30% of the kids in the district were non-Christians, and of course they saw Santa everywhere, but, at least where I live and where I grew up, the non-Christian kids were never told that Santa was going to bring them toys.

I do take offense at your substituting Christ where I had used the word Santa. Children do not need Santa, they need the Ancient of Days, they need a Savior, they need the One who can walk through the valley of the shadow of death with them, the Prince of Peace, not the flamboyant dresser who comes around once a year.

To clarify again, I did not give out Advent presents. I gave out presents during Hannukah, just as my Jewish neighbors did, because we thought it was a fun way to begin celebrating Christmas.

Thanks for clarifying about non-Christians not being told about Santa and toys.

Again, I did not mean offense by the substitution I made. The point that I was trying to make is that not all view Santa in the same way as you. What may not be offensive to you may, indeed, be offensive to others and vice versa. You believe in Christ/God, and I believe in the spirit of Father Christmas, Santa, or whatever. What we both seem to agree with is our dislike of the commercialism of Santa that seems to have originated right here in the good ole USA.

I understood that you didn't give out Advent gifts. Giving out gifts during Hannukah is indeed a good way to teach children of other holidays. Good on you for doing so.

Cher

I don't really know what I think. My mom was a big Santa booster (we always left a glass of milk and cookies for him on Christmas Eve and a carrot for his reindeer) and I think I was probably 8 before figuring out he was a myth, or a lie if you prefer that term. There wasn't a lot of commercialism in it at the time nor concerns about cultural/religious diversity. We lived in a tiny village in upstate NY that was almost entirely Methodist (only one church in town) and were quite poor, and Santa never brought more than one or two things on our lists. I do remember thinking it unfair that some kids who weren't nice at all got a lot more stuff than we did. Despite the deception, I don't consider myself compromised as an adult in my ability to discern wishful thinking vs. reality, nor did it result in any basic distrust of my parents or the world in general. I just thought the Santa myth was a part of childhood, and shedding it a part of growing up.

My wife, on the other hand, seems never to have quite have gotten over the disappointment of finding out the truth as a child, and was rather traumatized by the experience. Instead of this making her not want to do the Santa thing with our kids, however, she was determined to nurse the myth with them as long as possible. I didn't fight her on it, even though I was disinclined to do it at all myself (I really don't see Santa as a symbol of love and generosity whatsoever, at least in today's society). All three of them found out from their friends by 1st or 2nd grade.

Our 21-year-old son Chris, who now proudly subscribes to The Skeptic, is somewhat outraged that we perpetrated this lie on him (he feels rather the same way about his childhood instruction in the Catholic faith), even though he adores his mother. It doesn't seem to be an issue for the other two, who have always been much more peer-oriented in their worldview.

I impersonated the jolly old fella myself at a family party last night, here's me with my niece Allie (who is actually being raised Jewish).



Karen still hasn't quite figured out how to use my camera.