We're in the market for a new computer.

What do we look for? Where should we go buy it? Should I go to CompUSA, Best Buy, Sams Club? Hints? Advice? Snide remarks?

Here are the "needs" for this computer (I use "needs" very loosely because does anyone really truly NEED a computer?):

Internet heavy, blogging quite frequently, gaming (3D rendering and stuff), some Photoshopping/Graphic Design but nothing heavy, mp3-ing and storing, tons of picture storage, multiple programs running at the same time (several browsers and Excel and Outlook etc.) Some advanced audio needs (Pro Tools or other audio recording may be done on this computer).

Ok. You get the idea. Advice us up, yo.

I only know PCs...so if you're considering a Mac...I'll leave that to someone else.

Your computer use is a bit heavier than mine...I don't render or do any audio recording...those are about the only differences. I've found that Dell makes some pretty dependable computers. I run a Dell at home, and my school (University of Washington) runs Dells in their labs as well. (UW's Dells beat my Dell's sorry butt. Poor computer.) But I don't know if that's because they're that dependable, or just because my school cut some deal with the company.

Avoid eMachines, and Compaqs. And especially avoid a Compaq running Windows ME. Ick.

I personally don't like going into computer stores and just purchasing a pre-built machine, but I also don't like ordering a machine part by part either. I've done both, and one doesn't give enough flexibility, and the other just made me nervous about forgetting some crucial part to the tower. Which is another reason why I like Dell - they have a nice customizability feature online.
Now that I think about it, if you have a Fry's nearby, you might consider checking that place out. It would have the largest selection of pre-built computers, at least that I know of. If Fry's isn't accessible, CompUSA, or Circuit City might be the next best thing.

Most high-quality comptuers nowadays come with like 120-160 gigs of hard drive space, and probably half a gig of RAM (usually 512, if not more)...so storage and processing speed shouldn't be too big of a problem. Even the most basic computer comes with at least 256 DDR RAM, which is tolerably decent for most needs.

I'd say go for a computer with separate Audio and Video cards (ie - not integrated) for the gaming and ProTools use.

Hope that helps. Luck with the new computer.

"Keith from New York ... white courtesy phone! Keith from New York ... white courtesy phone!"

I agree with advice on Fry's. If you want to, you can actually build your own system and get all the parts you need at Fry's. The upside to that is that you can custom build what you need and they often throw in the operating system for free, after you've bought everything else. The downside is no warranty nor tech support. But, if you know what you're doing...

Stay away from Sam's Club. They have a terrible return policy on electronics, and what I have seen there is typically cheap, inferior products. Costco has an edge over Sam's, but you miss the selection of a store that specializes in electronics. I have mixed feelings about Best Buy, but you should check them out.

One of the best deals around is the Dell Outlet. You have to really know what you want. Rarely you get a reconditioned PC, but you mostly get something discontinued. You don't get to pick and choose like a regular Dell, but you can often find machines almost half the cost of the regulars. The best part is they come with a warranty thrown in, and I have always had Dell offer free help long after the warranty expires.

If there is a fry's in your area, go somewhere else. They lie to their customers about things. they lied to me big time. Yeah, sure the LCD screen was covered in the warrenty - suuuuure.

I'd go with Dell and configure your own, spending as much as you can afford (especially if you're serious about 3D rendering and gaming), upgrading the standard hard drive and video options. You'll need at least 512Mb of fast RAM for that stuff too, more would be better, and you'll probably want at least a 19" monitor. If you're going to be doing analog recording transfers, you might want to get it with just a cheap sound card and buy a high-end replacement from M-Audio. And get a service contract.

Good luck!

i only know PCs too. on the other hand, i don't recommend buying one from a retailer at all, unless it's a laptop. i'm all for the computer i can build myself.

go to newegg.com and do your purchasing of parts there. they have probably the best service, shipping, and support (and prices!) of anyone out there.

ok, blogging is nothing. your grandmother's comp can handle that, no sweat. you mention gaming and 3D rendering though. what kind of games are you talking about? if you're going with today's (and tomorrow's) FPS you can spend as much as your credit limit will allow. you can mortgage your house actually. basically your storage options and your preference in gaming are going to be the limiting factors in this machine. if you're actually talking about creating 3D models (3D max, etc) i don't have the knowledge to advise you, you'd need a pro-level card to get serious with that.

oh, and you need to decide now if you want to go with tomorrow's tech or not. a good AGP slot is fine for now and probably the next year or so, but 'PCI Express' will be tomorrow's standard for several years. AGP is cheap and easy right now. PCI Express is $$$. fret not. AGP can handle anything thrown at it for now.

how about (prices are rough estimates):

- AMD 64 cpu and motherboard (intel prices are obscene) - $200-250 (that's AGP). try to get several USB 2.0 ports, firewire, and onboard LAN. good makers are ASUS, Chaintech, AOpen, Soyo. keyword: socket 939.

- i wouldn't recommend anything less than a gig of PC3200 RAM - $120. if you can afford it, go with 2 gigs. running multiple programs/windows and games takes a toll. you shouldn't run Windows XP with anything less than 256. it will slow to a crawl with 128. Corsair and Kingston are tops here.

- for general music/gaming/dvd playback, an audigy 2 audio card ($65, live drive extra) is great. but if you intend to do music editing you're going to have to spend more, and i guarantee you won't find such a card on a dell. i don't know the prices or even brands for those. it could be up to $500 for an editing card.

- video card. here's where your money goes. your choice of either ATI or NVIDIA. both have a full range of prices and the debate between which is better is as fierce as ford vs. chevy, mac vs. pc, batman vs. superman. i'm an ATI man, m'self. you can't go wrong with a Radeon 9800 Pro (and it's $300 less than it was last year!). the X800 is way, way, way too expensive and you'd have to get a motherboard that supports 'pci express' anyway. 9800 Pro is a steal at $125. i should get one now. another option is ATI's 'All In Wonder' series: TV outs/ins, video recording/editing, etc. 9800 all in wonder is about $240. great price there too.

- you can get a Seagate 300 gig hard drive for $160. that, my friend, is incredible. seriously, i hadn't priced out this stuff for some time, i'm drooling now. if you're going to do video rendering/music editing you might consider 2. those files will be big. the major thing you need here is to make sure your motherboard and your hard drive are either ATA or SATA. if either one supports both formats, you're in good shape. most boards support both standards right now though.

- you must have a CD burner. a DVD +- RW would not be amiss in its stead. Lite-on is probably the best maker of these devices. i'm not well-versed with dvd writers but it seems you can get a great one for well under $100 now. of course, they also burn CDs.

- get a decent case. don't go with a gaudy, flashy one, those are for idiot teenage males, and they're made of crap and plastic. Antec, Cooler Master, and Lian-Li command the top end here. but any box that looks nice will do.

- get a good power supply. PC Power and Cooling is a great maker. get one that rates at around 450 watts and runs about $60-80. heft = quality with power supplies. the heavier the better. it'll outlast everything else you bought by a few years.

- floppy drive. can't boot without the little bastard. spend the $6 and forget it exists.

- monitor. do you have one already? do you need a better one? can you detect anything you hate with the one you have already? nobody but you can tell you what monitor is best for you, but you have the choices of CRT, LCD, and LCD-widescreen. don't ask me about monitors, i try not to know because i'm afraid i'll have to spend a LOT of money if i find out anything....

- OS. Windows XP Pro is the gold standard right now. if you're the linux type you already know more about computers than i could dream of telling you. don't you DARE go with Windows ME. adjectives don't exist in english worthy of describing its retchedness.

- keyboard and mouse. these can be cheap. or expensive. you decide. for the mouse, go with a logitech optical of some sort. lots of buttons = good. choose a keyboard by typing on it and seeing if you like it. are you a lefty? your mouse options suck.

- there is a plethora of gadgets out there to fill those needs you didn't know you had: powered ejecting cupholder with cigarette lighter (for charging purposes)? got it. cassette player drive for 80's revolution? yep. front mounted I/O bay with monitoring screens, fanbus, widgets, gadgets, and thingies? $35, and handy too. thumbscrews are very cheap ($3) and can let you eliminate the screwdriver from your list of computer fix-it tools.

if you're thrifty you can build your own system for around $1000 with no other tool than a #2 phillips screwdriver. you can easily go past $3000 though. so plan it out and know what you want. building your own computer is pretty trouble free these days. be prepared for your motherboard to fail to POST though.... that's what mine is doing right now.


congratulations, you are the recipient of my longest post ever.

Could not agree with this more. I occasionally do go into Fry's, but only if I absolutely have no other option.

Customer service at Fry's is horrible. One of my co-workers once went into our local store to buy some office supply or other. She asked one of the employees for the item and he went off to get it for her, but he returned with a box that said it was something else. Upon questioning him about it, he insisted that although the box said one thing, it was really the item she had asked for. After getting nowhere with this guy, she finally asked to speak with the manager. His response to her was that, regardless of what the box said it contained, if his salesperson said the box contained something else, then his salesperson was right.

That's the sort of experience you can look forward to at Fry's.

Sweet Georgia Brown! What a sweet post. I feel more knowledg-y know. Tech-knowledgy that is.

So, if I'm hearing you all right, Windows ME is bad. Check.

Explain to me that last little bit about the Motherboard failing to post...or something. I'm ok with comptuers (I actually bravely put in my own RAM once and added a CD burner on my own...that was traumatic, but I survived.)

Here's a little blurb from Dell, can someone translate a few of these items for me...

Dimension 4700
Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor 520 w/HT Technology (2.80GHz, 800FSB)
Microsoft® Windows® XP Media Center 2005 Edition
256MB DDR2 SDRAM at 400MHz (1x256M)
80GB3 Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM)

DDR2? SDRA<? GB3? What's the "3" for? Is there a certain RPM my harddrive should be if it's a larger capacity? Is it bad if it's TOO big? Less reliable? What's "DVI"?

It sounds like Fry's is the Guitar Center of the computing world. I hate Guitar Center, but because I already know what I want and how much I want it for, it's not so bad walking in. I know it's going to take long and that I'm surrounded by a sea of shark-like salesmen (heck, the guitarist in my band used to be a MANAGER there). My fear, of course, is that I'm a guppie in shark-infested waters that I know little to nothing about. I'm understanding more as you guys post. Keep it coming. I'm soaking it all in.

I'm off to newegg.com next.

That's the memory (RAM) in the machine. DDR2 SDRAM. 256MB of RAM seems rather low.

I advise you to buy a computer with a screen. Keyboards are also useful. Most computers look kind of like a box. It helps if there's stuff inside.

Hey, and a mouse or other pointing device sometimes helps.

Aaron, Aaron, Aaron. That's why God made fingers!

I would stay away from XP Media Center. It is still new, and with any version of Windows they are not to be used when they are still new. What I know about it it does not seem very functional for standard computing needs either. Mostly for listening and watching. I would go with XP Professional if you can afford an extra $100 bucks on the machine. My opinion only!

You'll want a minimum of 512MB of RAM or memory, I recomend 1 GB for the audio stuff, gaming and multitasking.

80 GB Hard drives are not much in the way of storage anymore. Try for 120GB or higher.

Also, as someone else already stated, be sure to get seperate video and audio cards instead of integrated or on-board. Also recommended is a video card with 64MB of memory. The more memory the card has the less it has to share with the computer. Most Dell computers come standard with integrated audio and video, and they share the main computer memory which leads to slowness if there are alot of windows open.

For price you can probably buy the Dell as is and add the video and audio cards later, for a cheaper price somewhere else. (It's not difficult to add them, don't worry )

Those are my thoughts.

I don't even think you can buy ME pre-installed on a computer anymore. Windows ME is a great example of why Windows versions should not be used until they are time tested.

Make sure it is quiet. A loud fan will annoy you in the long run.

Patrik

yeah, 256 RAM is disgustingly low. seriously. windows xp recommends 128 as a minimum and that is complete bunk. 256 is the realistic minimum. 512 is acceptable for most work. 1 gig is highly recommended. more if possible, but i consider 1 gig to be my minimum for now.

windows media center edition is mostly a 'bells and whistles' OS. it's gorgeous, but it's mostly designed for listening to music and watching movies, not doing anything to them. you WILL need the extra RAM if you go with that. Windows XP Pro is time-tested and solid. the home edition has all sorts of holes in it, not bugs, but gaps in what you can do. i XP Home.

standard RPM for desktop drives is 7200. 5400 is sometimes used for laptop drives, but it isn't recommended. at all. i highly doubt you can actually find a 5400 rpm desktop drive with more than 30 gigs capacity these days. 10,000 rpm drives are made by Seagate for fast access by technophiles. these drives are either 36 or 74 gigs, they're expensive too. only worth it if you know you'll need it. 15,000 rpm drives can be had, but they're strictly server drives. you can use them in a desktop pc, but you can't afford them. just FYI.

i'm not kidding; a 300 gig hard drive from Seagate is an awesome, awesome deal for $160.

Terms:

- ok, DDR2 is an upgraded version of DDR (Double Data Rate), you can't take advantage of Double Data Rate unless you get a matching pair of RAM modules; same company, same product line, same capacity. go with an even number of RAM, (think double, you can do 4 too, if you have the slots) if you go to an odd number; 1 or 3 being your choices, you'll actually be going back to Single Rate. you must also place the RAM in the proper slot order in most instances. your motherboard manual should say which. SD RAM stands for Single Data.... uh Rate. basically, it's half the speed of DDR which is half the speed of DDR2. DDR2 gooood. don't worry about SD RAM, i can't even find a motherboard that supports it anymore.

- GB3 - ok, the GB stands for gigabyte, referring of course to all 80 (yucky) of them on that drive. i'm not certain what the '3' stands for honestly, but i'm willing to bet it refers to the number of disk platters inside. kinda like 3 CDs stacked atop one another.

- DVI stand for Digital Video Input. this refers to the plugs/jacks to hook your monitor up to either your videocard or your motherboard. it's the modern hookup, used for many modern CRTs (cathode ray tube) and all LCDs. VGA (i don't know) is the older standard. it's still viable. a simple adapter between the two can be had for a few dollars.


i don't recommend onboard video on the motherboard yet. it's gotten much better than it used to be, but since you can get a Radeon 9800 for only $130 or so it's really not worth it. it has either 128 or 256 megs of memory onboard. this is good. onboard audio is very good these days, but it can bog down performance in games. a dedicated sound card is better. a pro level one is best if you intend to create music on your PC.

check a few 'how-to' sites if you'd like to try building your own PC. it's nowhere near as hard as it sounds.



a motherboard failing to POST is a pain in the ***. basically it means you've gotten a bad motherboard, or you screwed it up somehow. poked it wrong i guess. newegg.com will take a bad part back and replace it or refund you if it's within 30 days of purchase. great company. POSTing refers to the beeps your computer makes when it first comes on. the beep sequence is coded to tell the user what is going wrong or right with the startup process. one beep usually means A-OK. no beeps and no bootup means something is screwed. the other sequences are board-specific. once again, it's explained what is what in the manual. it sounds a bit like a cross between a modem and morse code.

don't ask me. i don't understand POSTing except when nothing happens.

yeah, a loud fan is annoying. the one that comes with pentium 4's is perfectly fine if you decide to go with that brand. the AMD fan is decent for what it's worth.

i forgot to mention, fans and heatsinks only come with a retail chip. if you get an OEM chip, no fan will be included. in which case, you should check out a few fan makers. Thermaltake makes Extreeeeeme!! testosterone based coolers with manly flashing lights. lots o' fun. they are good though, really. but you actually can get a good fan for less than $15 easily. there's Vantec and Antec, but don't go with Chieftec (or Initech, hehe). of course, Cooler Master makes good fans too. beware, there are leviathans out there who can convince you that it's a good idea to spend $100 for a cooler. they lie. (but they're so pretty!)

don't even worry about peltier, water cooling, or phase-change cooling systems. those devices are made for the truly crazed and sociopathic geeks. a good analogy may be made between cooling device complexity and penis size. if you're intimidated by installing a CPU, you aren't ready for water-cooling. few are. and those few are insane.

Good gravy, dude. Looks like we found the topic you like.

i only know hardware man. i can't code to save my life. i just like putting the stuff together, not like i can afford the parts though. plus i'm in the middle of an upgrade cycle anyway and this stuff has had my attentionf for the last week entirely.

I'm glad I caught you when you were in the heat of the battle. I will be referring back to this post constantly as I begin my trek into buying my next computer. Now I'm thinking I might actually try to build it on my own...

Rock on!!!


-Libby, who is currently building her own bike

yeah! after i'm done with this bloody computer i'm going to set about building a bike too!

I'm going to have to disagree about the hard drive speed thing. The higher the RPM, the better.

I've had 7,200 RMP drives that were loud (a 13.6 GB Quantum) and 10,000 RPM drives that were nearly silent (my current 18.2 GB Quantum.)

The faster the hard drive, the better. Plain-and-simple. Most of the time your comptuer is "busy" doing something, its speed is limited by the hard drive. That's really the bottleneck in computers. They're capable of processing data much faster than most drives can deliver it.

The problem with hard drives is, though, they want to tell you specs that don't matter much. [It's like looking for car info about the engine, and all they'll tell you is the number of cylinders. A 6-cylinder with 3 liters displacement is going to do a lot more than an 8-cylinder with 2.5.] What you really want to find is the seek and access times, and the sustained transfer rate. Higher sustained transfer speeds are better. If you can't find the sustained transfer rate, the rotational speed will help you generalize - a 10,000 RPM drive will transfer data faster than a 7,200 RPM drive as a rule, but there are many little variables that can affect that. The access/seek times, though, are very important - when your comptuter is accessing many small files, for example when it's starting up, it has to read many things from all over the disk. A fast seek time can make your computer start up much faster than it would with a slow hard drive. For that number, the smaller the better.

The secret to having a computer that doesn't feel slow is purchasing a fast hard drive and sufficient RAM. When I put together my current computer nearly three years ago, the hard drive was ridiculously fast and the RAM was overkill. Now, they're almost standard. As such, my computer still compares to most things you'll find for sale at Best Buy or from Dell. Get more memory than Dell encourages you to buy. AT LEAST 512 MB, preferably a gigabyte. True, Windows won't really use it now. But in a year, you'll thank me. In two years, you'll be happy that you don't have to upgrade already.

- - - - - -

RE: Windows XP Home vs. Professional, you're not going to need Pro. Save your money, take someone you love out to a nice dinner or something. You can see the differences between the editions here. The only one you would possibly care about is "Remote Desktop" and that's something most people won't use. The rest of the features are primarily useful in a business network environment. C'mon, do you *really* want to give Microsoft more money?

- - - - - -

Now that we're done with that...I'm really going to recommend a Macintosh. If you can stomach the cost, iMacs are beautiful machines. If you can't stomach the cost, the eMac is quite reasonable.

Let me go over the initial list of things you want a computer for:
Internet heavy, blogging quite frequently
You have FireFox, IE, Safari, etc. The Internet is pretty well taken care of no matter *what* computer you get. Even a crappy eMachines or Compaq.

gaming (3D rendering and stuff)
Admittedly the Mac is not as good as Windows for gaming in general, if for no other reason than the sheer availability of games. There are, however, enough games if you're just an occasional player. Some of the shareware games are incredible.

If you're referring to 3D rendering as in actual 3D design work, a Mac can do just fine.

some Photoshopping/Graphic Design but nothing heavy
Photoshop was initially on the Mac. iPhoto is wonderful for basic retouching.

mp3-ing and storing
The home of iTunes. If you need to store, organize, catalog MP3s...well, you're set.

tons of picture storage
iPhoto shines here. Imports and catalogs automatically when you plug in your camera.

multiple programs running at the same time (several browsers and Excel and Outlook etc.)
This is something that's hard to explain to people...but Windows is crappy for multitasking. Have you noticed how when you minimize a window and leave it down for a little while, when you bring it back up it seems to take forever? It's because Windows is using virtual memory in a proactive fashion, clearing out RAM by writing things to the hard drive. Then, when you want your program again, it has to read it back out off the disk. Anyhow, OS X is much better about that - it makes much better use of RAM in general, and you'll find the computer stays far more responsive.


Some advanced audio needs (Pro Tools or other audio recording may be done on this computer).
One word: GarageBand. Okay, it's two words mashed together, but still. It's wonderful.

For the average user, the Mac is a great choice. Yes, it's all about preference. But the Mac is a very well-polished and functional machine. Go to your local Apple Store and check them out - there are a dozen within 50 miles of San Dimas. I think you'll like it.

If you go with a PC (and I suggest that you do), be certain to consider COOLING for the computer. With gaming and 3D rendering on your list, heat generation is an issue.

The consideration of COOLING will drive your choice of case and power supply. My PVR (my home-built TIVO) has no fewer than 6 fans on it to keep it cool. My gaming rig has a similar number.

So, Drew, prepared to give a reason? I know, I know...that'll degenerate into some sort of unholy platform war. I'd prefer to avoid that too. Still, good-natured discussion is important here. Why do you favor Windows?

I want him to get the best computer for the job - and regardless of your OS preference, the extras Apple provides are amazing. Though the same exact software is not there, you usually have a better program in its palce. If you were to compare iMovie to Windows Movie Maker, you'd see what I mean.

GarageBand is definitely a prosumer app - sure, it's not quite ProTools, but it's definitely better than ACiD, for example. And for all but the most serious recording, it does an excellent job. There are a good number of professional, big-name artists that have used it for portions of their new albums.

And about iPhoto...I wasn't kidding. If you have a digital camera, this is your app.

I am not interested in this conversation dissolving into a war, but since you asked... I prefer PCs because I can do SO MUCH MORE on PCs than on Macs. Sure, Macs have a few killer apps (GarageBand), but there are quite capable programs for the same functions on the PC.

One word to end this discussion: GAMING. Try playing Guild Wars on a Mac.

I don't want a war, either. But you're not making your point very effectively. What is this "so much more" that you speak of, besides gaming? That's the one weak area I can acknowledge.

Otherwise, I contest that there is "much more" that Windows lets you do. There is much more software, but it mostly caters to redundant needs. For pretty much anything else you need to do, the Mac's got your back. I'm talking about specific end-results, not routes to those results. Yes, you may not be able to run very specific item of software, but for anything you need to get done, there's a way. Do you really need a dozen unzipping apps? I don't.

Anyhow, I'm typing this up on a Windows computer. It's my primary computer. Still, I'm not about to say that my usage patterns are the same as most people - because they're not. I'm a certain subset of comptuer user that knows how to prevent/remove spyware and viruses. I know enough of the inner workings of windows to rescue most "broken" installations. I've done customer support as a professional. I get the feeling much of this applies to you as well, Drew. We're not "normal" users, so it makes sense that our needs are not those of other people.

For your average user for whom gaming is NOT a primary concern (that's still my big disclaimer) a Macintosh will get anything done, and generally with less pain. Still, this is all for Teleguy to decide. I'm going to, at the very least, strongly recommend that he go to an Apple store and check one out.

ok, i'll go with it. i haven't used a mac since '95. i'm fine with that. apple does seem to be the 'go-to' as far as recording and editing is concerned. i still say pc.

i know how a pc is put together inside. i understand the quirks, weaknesses, and fixes for the main OS available. the games available for the pc are FAR more diverse than they are for the mac. try and find a game put out by an independant developer for the mac, i'm pretty sure you won't find one. i could be wrong though. it's easier for me to continue learning the pc than it would be for me to learn an all new machine from the bottom up.


anyway, as far as hard drive speed is concerned. of course a higher speed is better! that's why the prices are so obscene. that's why i recommended against a 5400... if it could be found. does a 300 gig, 10,000 RPM drive for $160 made by Seagate even exist? drives that fast are priced a good deal higher than a drive running the current standard; 7200. i don't believe there's even a 10,000 rpm drive for the desktop rated higher than 74 gigs. that's tiny these days. give me the capacity first, i can live with the extra second or two wait times. i've got 110 gigs on my (currently dead) machine and i'm feeling very cramped.


i just looked on newegg.com. great prices and all, but the 74 gig 10K RPM drive is $20 more than the 300 gig drive by Seagate. the only manufacturer i found who had drives larger than that at the same speed was fujitsu: yes, you can get a 300 gig drive at 10K RPM.... for $795. if you're feeling a little bit thrifty, you could opt for the 147 gig model, priced at a mere $430.

7200 rpm doesn't sound so intolerable now does it? should i even bother checking the 15K rpm drives?

well, i did. they're pricey and that's all i need to say...

If you haven't used a Mac in 10 years, you're missing out. I say this as a multi-OS fan. =) Then again, I think people that didn't use BeOS missed out...

For hard drives...I've got a killer fast hard drive for Windows and applications to be run off of, with a giant-but-slow drive for all my data that doesn't need to be fast, like my MP3s. THis arrangement works quite well; it's a good compromise. For me.

i have to admit though: the thought of RAIDing 4 of those 300 gig 10K drives together does make me feel all tingly inside..... a mere $2,400 dollars.



editted for poor execution of a thought process.

[We're way off-topic now, but damn the torpedoes!]

If you really want to be cool, get four of these and connect them to one of these in a RAID-5 configuration. Oh, who am I kidding? Get a fifth drive, just in case one of the four in your RAID fails.

And then give it all to me.

nah, i just want to be the first kid on my block with a freaking TERAbyte. and change.

You must have to store a *lot* of porn. You might want to cut down on that.

=P

Uh...the porn thread is over here---->>Orchard Porn Thread


Thanks for the masive amount information.
I think I WILL be sticking with PC, though I'm not entirely uncomfortable with Mac, I'm just MORE comfortable with PC.

ok, the computer works now. the first mobo was NOT defective, it was the 'two-foot section'* that was the problem. basically, i had to move a single jumper over, one pin away.

let this be a lesson to you: call or email tech support if you have any trouble with a part. very handy.


*for the non-techies; the 'two foot section' refers to the space between the keyboard and the back of your chair that is filled with idiocy, ie. 'user error'.

Tis why I had a freind help me build my desktop. He knew all of that. I almost put mine together, nd I totally would have missed that very same thing.

oh, i had two friends helping me on this. two sysadmins actually. they didn't catch it either. the main problem is that my manual was a bit foggy on this exact point and we didn't know what to do about it.

I actually hadn't heard that one. My preferred way to refer to it is thus:

"It looks like you have a nut loose on your keyboard."

I tend to find people who make these statements haven't spent very much time using Mac OS X in the past 5 years as a primary computer. (For example - I haven't used Linux as a primary desktop OS for about 3 years, so I don't feel like I can do very much on it - even though I know that I can)
(Also - I don't consider computers to be primary gaming devices - I have a gaming console for that.)

One more pet peeve that I'll get out of the way - Macs are PCs (personal computers). What everyone should be talking about is Windows versus Mac OS X versus Linux (etc...) In 12 months time they will all run on relatively similar hardware.

Speaking as a computer scientists - windows has fundamental flaws in the way that it is built - ie. without security in mind from the begining.

Other than that some things to consider
1) Firewall - built in on Windows (after XP service pack 2) - has been built in on Mac OS X for much longer. The firewall is MUCH easier to configure on a Mac
2) Viruses - for all practical purposes you do not need to worry about viruses on Mac OS X (not to say they do not exist, but none have been found). On Windows virus protection is essential (expensive and takes up processing power that could otherwise be useful)
3) Stability - I will admin that Windows continues to get better in this area, but it has not caught up yet.
4) Installation of applications - When installing on Windows you typpically need to run an installer program that forces you to reboot. On a Mac you typically copy the program to your applications folder and it is ready to run instantly. (Some do use installers, but I have encountered only a handful that require a reboot - and those are usually developer tools)
5) Avaliability of applications - Windows has more applications avaliable (by sheer number) - but I haven't found anything (barring playing the latest games) that I can't do on Mac OS X. --- I have, however, found plenty of things that I can do with a factory fresh Macintosh that I cannot do with a factory fresh Dell (for example) -- -- Sure Windows has more apps, but be prepared to shell out some extra $$ for them.

I think as a computer purchases you need to focus on the software (operating system and included applications) rather than the hardware manufacture and specs. (Hardware is important too, but it is a secondary concern)

When purchasing a Macintosh you get much more useful bundeled software - With Windows based machines it varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, but I haven't seen one that provides anything on par with iLife (iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD, and GarageBand).

That being said - just go to a few stores (Apple Store, Best Buy, Compu USA, etc) and spend some time playing around on the computers. Try to do some tasks that you think you would typically do and see how you can get through them and how difficult it is.

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Personally I prefer Macintosh - I love my 15" PowerBook and it almost never leaves my side. In 5 years of using Mac OS X - I have never had an operating system crash and cannot say the same of the windows computers I have been forced to use at work.

If it gives any strength to my arguments - I have 2 degrees in computer science, a third one well underway and I teach computer science at a local university.

And if I'm rambling, it's because I still haven't fully recovered from the flight from London to Cincinnati.

I guess we've been "schooled."

Hey mikehelmick, you might want to post something here, *not* speaking as a computer scientist. Just sayin'...

I have a degree in comp. sci. too, and certs, and blahbetty blahbetty blah. But for my $0.02, I'd say that Apples/Macs have less security concerns because they're simply less prevalent and aren't targeted as much. As such, the holes they have -- and they're there, to be sure -- simply haven't been as exposed. The applications for Macs are not in as widespread use as those for PCs (do a poll in the orchard here for a nice sample) so the associated data files don't move 'round the 'Net and elsewhere as much as for PCs... and the more targets there are, the more shots are fired. So it goes.

In short, I'd suggest that if Apple were as good at marketing and distributing its product as Microsoft, they'd have the same exposure to vulnerabilities. And while they have 'better' processor power (I love the silliness of saying that, but I won't debate it here) they can't open the vast majority of files moving 'round the world.

I'll still take a PC over a stack of Macs for what I do. I can, just like Drew said, just do so much more.

If you are thinking of buying a DELL, make sure you take advantage of the online coupons. There are many sites that post Dell Coupons.

http://www.gottadeal.com/dell.php
http://www.dealcatcher.com/

Also, check out the inventory at Dell Outlet - http://www.delloutlet.com. The systems sold at Dell Outlet are rarely used or refurbs. They are usually new unopened systems that were returned from large company orders that cannot be legally sold as new.

The outlet also has great discounts on monitors and Plasma TVs.

Allright - enligten me then...

what can you do on Windows that you can't do on a Mac (gaming asside - I concede that )?

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In regards to the other points - the being less targeted is a smoke and mirrors argument. I think it is more that exploits are harder to come by.
For example - Outlook Express for a long time used to execute script in html based email by default - causing the spread of many many email worms. That kind of default "openess" isn't there on Apple Mail.

As for macs not being able to "open the vast majority of files moving 'round the world" - hogwash. The vast majority of files moving around the world are images, music, and movies (counting "illegal" traffic) - I can open those just fine. For the most part, the applications use the same file formats (for example - Word, Excel, Photoshop, Illustrator, zip).

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All that asside, I still think that the best way to purchase a computer is try and use the computer you are considering buying and make the best decision for you.

I do - I'm just not a frequent poster.

The world of gaming should not be discounted lightly. That was the primary reason I got my PC years ago, and continues to be a part of my computer usage to this day. To that end, Guild Wars is an excellent example of a PC game.

Also, I built my own Personal Video Recorder (PVR) using an inexpensive PC as the base. I imagine that there are hardware/software packages on the Mac (EyeTV comes to mind), but I would also imagine that they are more expensive and with more limited options than on the PC. If I didn't like the software that I'm using to run my PVR, there are several other choices: SageTV, ShowShifter, and Microsoft's own product, just to name a few.

The limitation of choices on Mac is another disadvantage when compared to PC. For example, GarageBand is an excellent piece of software. But it's just about the only choice for that type of functionality. There are several choices for the same function on a PC -- just find the one that suits your needs/budget/style/hardware/etc best and rock on. To me, the limited choices on the Mac are a big negative.


The fact of the matter is that there is several magnitudes of difference in the number of users on PCs versus Macs. Macs simply do not have the installed base that PCs do. A quick survey of the computers in my college reveals that there are 3 Macs in our network of over 250 computers. And the professors in my college get to select the machine they wish to use.

The Mac OS is just as prone to exploits as any OS. It's the nature of the OS beast. It seems that there are fewer people searching for them on Macs than on PCs, though I bet the percentage of 'hackers' would be the same on both platforms. There is no argueing that Microsoft pulled some blunders (like the one you mentioned). In their defense, they are patching those holes and making Windows much more secure.


We agree on this.

I have 5 PCs at my house, two of which run Linux. One Linux box and one WinXP box are on 24/7. If there was a function I needed that was best peformed by a Mac, I would deploy a Mac. However, to this point, my needs are abundantly satisfied by PCs.

Speaking as yet another computer scientist, I recommend that you read these two essays before making your purchase. They usually seem to help me:

The Joy of Sales Resistance
Why I Am Not Going to Buy a Computer

Jim

(From Sex, Economy, Freedom & Community by Wendell Berry)

I understand that. Please note that I'm not "ganging up" on you here. I was suggesting you not do all the credential name-dropping. It's really not needed, as it comes off as a "Mike knows so much more than anyone else" (I don't think that was your intention).

Clear as mud?

just trying to add perspective. Being a working researcher in computer science - I use computers for a different purpose the say a casual home user or a corporate accountant. For example I'm concerned about the avaliability of free development tools and portability of program code (which I why I tend to go for Unix-like or based machines) --- and what I was trying to say is this is how I feel from that perspective and it doesn't apply to everyone.

I do subscribe to the saying that when you get you are a bachelors student you think you know everything, a masters student and you know that you don't, and as a PhD student you realize how much you don't know. I am at that point where I know the areas that I don't know everything about (personal computing being one of them) and fully realize that there are foks with different credentials and experience that know more than me about certain subjects.

but, sorry if I came acorss as a holier than thou jerk, not my intention.