Vines are a wonderful way to get your hands on great live music without spending a fortune. Luckily, on this website there are quite a few people who are willing to share their live shows with us. All they want in return is to know that the music spreads so others can enjoy it. In order to ensure that people keep sharing the music, and that everyone on the vine gets a quality recording, it is important that we all follow the same procedures. Note that the rules for vines in this forum may differ from those in other websites you visit. Please read this entire post before signing up for any vines in this forum.

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SO WHAT'S A VINE?

When someone has a show that they would like to share, they will make a copy and then post a message describing the show. Everyone who wants a copy then posts in the same message thread. The show is then sent from person to person, in order they posted. When the first person receives the show, they make a copy, and then send the original to the next person on the list. Sound simple? It really is, but to ensure a positive experience for everyone, there are some rules you need to follow.

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RULES FOR VINE PARTICIPANTS

Please note that vine participation in this forum is a privilege and entails responsibilities. If you decide to sign on for a vine, you have a responsibility to the people who sign up after you to keep the music moving! Be advised that those who sign up for vines and repeatedly fail to follow the rules below will be disallowed from posting in the Musical Vines forum.

1. Think before you sign up for a vine. Don't sign up for so many that you'll be unable to pass them along quickly if they arrive in your mailbox around the same time. Don't sign up for a DVD offer unless you're equipped to copy DVDs. Will you be moving or studying for finals in a couple of months? Probably not a great time to sign up for a dozen vines. Note that if you change your email address, you must indicate your new email address in the threads for all vines you are signed up for.

2. When you have decided to join a vine, make sure you page through to the last list of names posted on the last page of the thread. Copy and paste the entire list from the beginning as a Reply, and add your own name and email address to the bottom of it. You may use the "username at domainname" convention or request to be PMed for your address if you prefer not to post your actual email address. It's a good idea to bookmark the vine thread so that you can easily find it later.

3. If you are signed up for a vine and you are going on vacation or your burner is broken or your cat died or you will otherwise be unable to fulfill your responsibility as a vine participant to pass the discs on quickly, you are obligated to ask the person ahead of you to skip you when you are contacted for your address. If you know you're going to be away for a while, please notify the people in front of you on the vines you're signed up for by posting a note in them.

4. As soon as you receive a recording in the mail, post that you have received it on the vine's thread by copying and pasting the most recent version of the list and putting the "IN" date next to your name, and then email or PM the next person on the vine to request their current mailing address. If the posted email address is invalid or you don't receive a response from the next person within 3 days, then email the next person on the vine until you get a response. If you are a person who only checks your email or forum messages once a week or less frequently, then please don't sign up for vines in this forum.

5. Copy the master disc(s) you receive, and mail the original master disc(s) to the next person within a maximum of 5 days from the time you receive it, and preferably sooner. Please treat the master disc(s) with care so they are not scratched or otherwise damaged. If you receive discs and think you cannot copy them within 5 days for whatever reason, you should mail them immediately to the next person after getting their current address. You should then indicate a skip on the vine's thread and add your name to the end of the list if you want to receive the recording again later.

6. Limiting your outgoing shipments to the U.S. (or whatever your native country may be) is not OK. Sending regular mailers of non-dutiable goods like CDs that weigh under a pound to Canada or the UK from the U.S. does not require filling out a Customs form or a trip to the Post Office. All you need to do is slap on a couple of extra stamps and drop the mailer in a mailbox. U.S. residents can calculate international postage rates here . If you are unwilling to support our non-U.S. members on occasion, then please don't sign up for vines in this forum.

7. Use sturdy packaging for outgoing discs, either stiff cardboard or well-padded manila mailers. Make sure you affix adequate postage and indicate a return address. Write "DO NOT FOLD OR BEND" on the mailer.

8. When you have mailed the master disc(s) out, note the OUT date on the vine thread. If you have skipped anyone after you, please note that and the reason they have been skipped on the vine thread if it's not already apparent.

9. If nobody signs up after you, please hold on to the original discs. After a few months, you can re-offer it as a vine yourself, as there are usually new members who will be interested.

10. If you receive a disc that is broken or unreadable, or if you think a vine is stalled or observe other problems, please send an email to otrvines@rcltd.org, or you can send me a Private Message by clicking here -- put "OTRVINES" in the message title. I will attempt to contact the last person who received the vine or to have it re-seeded. Note that being vine cop is not the job that earns me a paycheck every week, so please be patient.

I will be keeping an eye on all vines that haven't been updated in the past week or so. People who, in the opinion of the vine supervisor, have violated the above rules more than twice will be skipped on any vines they are currently signed up for and will be prohibited from posting in the Musical Vines forum by the site administrator in the future. You will receive warning messages from me if, in my judgment, there is a problem with your behavior.

Please keep in mind that these recordings are enjoyed only because of the generosity of the orchard members who offer them here. Praise is welcome, complaints are not!

Feel free to post any questions about these rules or suggestions for improving them in this thread, and thanks for your cooperation.

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HOW DO I START A VINE?

Please note that no copyrighted material may be offered as a vine or any part of a vine! Doing so is grounds for being permanently banned from this forum.

If you are seeding your own concert recording, please split it into tracks using a program that's appropriate for creating .wav files for burning to CD (such as the free downloadable program CD Wave). When you create your master discs, make sure you use the "Disc At Once" setting for burning the CDs so there are no silent gaps between the tracks. Please listen to the CDs you burn to send out (or at least parts of each track) to make sure there weren't any problems with the burning.

Write something to the effect of "ORCHARD VINE MASTER/COPY AND PASS ON" on the discs, as well as the artist and the date of the show. Number the CDs if there is more than one.

Post a new topic on the board with the name and date of the show (for example, Over the Rhine 8/12/2003 vine). You can post your email address for the first person to send you their mailing address, or request to be PMed.

Put the discs in some type of protective holder and place them in a bubble mailer or stiff media mailer and write DO NOT BEND OR FOLD on the front and back of the mailer. Do not use unpadded mailers. Affix proper postage and include your return address.

Take it to the post office and mail it to the first person who signed up. It's on the way!

Pat yourself on the back for making a bunch of music nuts happy.

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MISCELLANEOUS STUFF

No money or goods are to be exchanged for shows. If anyone tries to buy shows or asks you for money, notify the board. This is a big No-No.

Do not try to sell these shows on other boards or places like E-Bay. You will be shut down.

Again, do not vine copyrighted material. It's illegal and NO ONE on this board ever does anything illegal.

Please only sign up for shows that you really want because you are interested in the artist. If you just want more shows for trading, wait a few weeks before signing up so that people who really want the show can get it first.

If you want to get into trading and need to build a collection, post a message asking if anyone is willing to B&P (Blanks & Postage: You send blank CDs along with a stamped self-addressed mailer to get the shows back to you) with you.

Return the favor -- if you get a show that people on the board might be interested in, start your own vine.

If you end up with an extra copy of a show, or just feeling downright generous, offer it to a burnerless person. They love music too!

Don't ask the person sending you the vine to include other shows unless they have offered to send extras.

If don't have a CD burner, don't sign up for vines asking for shows that you can't share. If there is a lot of music you want, consider purchasing a burner. There are many generous persons willing to send you shows, but please don't take advantage (you can always ask for B&P).
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Thanks for organizing this, Keith!

I appreciate you taking care of this issue on the Orchard and it was my pleasure to help you in working out the rules. Let me know if there is anything I can do to support you in this endeavor.

Keith...good job. I agree with everything you said in there. However, I don't check back in here once I have received a vine and passed it on. I feel that if I am the last person on the vine than it is the person who is after myself responsibility to contact me to get the vine. Now on the David Byrne one that is my bad, because it had my old username...

I think that if people get bounce back e-mails etc, that they should skip the person. I have gone through and tried to update every vine that I have signed up for so that they all have my correct username.

Good point, Barry. If you're the first person to sign onto a vine, then you should contact the vine originator to provide your mailing address. Likewise, if you're signing onto a non-active vine that has already gone to the last person before you, you should contact him/her to ask for it and provide your mailing address.

thanks keith and drew for your work and help on this. i love you both in a non-commital fake internet sort of way.

Aww thank you Sara, that sure does warm my heart!

so long as it's a fake, non-commital internet sort of warming. /hijack

I really think that it is important to contact people even if you have their addresses. Because I have a little of a backlog, Aimee Mann, Kim Taylor, Jason Mraz, etc...that I probably would have skipped myself because of things going on right now. I don't send vines out unless I pm the person and get a reply back. But, that is just me. I will try and get all of these out in the next few days... sorry for any inconviences.

Thank you, Barry. I agree you should get a current address back before sending on a vine, but since many people who have signed up here have abandoned the orchard and/or their email address, it's also important that you try the next person in line if you don't get a response from the person after you in 3 days.

And folks, please update the vine threads when you ship something out so we know the vine hasn't stalled. Thanks!

I've got a couple of mailers at home, so I'm hoping I can just put stamps on them instead of going to the post office to ship it. Does anyone know how many stamps it takes to send a CD inside a mailer within the US? The USPS has a calculator on their website, but I don't have a scale sensative enough to weigh something that small.

Depends on the mailer, and CDs also vary somewhat by weight. Postage for the first ounce is 37¢, with 23¢ for each additional ounce. Typically my outgoing packages with 2 CDs in a soft plastic slipcover in a stiff cardboard mailer are a little under 3 ounces, which requires $0.83 postage (three standard first-class letter stamps). A single CD in a manila bubble mailer probably only needs two stamps ($0.60 postage).

If you're planning to do vines here or anywhere else, you're well advised to get yourself a postage scale. I have a cheap little spring-loaded one from Staples and it works fine. Viners may want to consider stamps.com too, which allows you to print exact postage on your home printer, although you need to get special USPS-approved labels to print the stamps on.

Calculate your postage rates

Stamps.com is awesome. You can print the exact postage you need instead of applying numerous $.37 stamps and save a little money. The cost of the postage scale and the special print paper is compensated over time, IMO....besides not having to wait in line at the P.O.

Postcard stamps are also good to have if you don't want to print your own postage. One postcard stamp & one first class stamp = 60 cents. Two postcard stamps & one first class stamp = 83 cents.

If you have access to a mail room where you work (if you're employed), you can also use the postage scale there. I do it all the time.

I asked Linford about OtR's policy regarding the electronic distribution of their live shows, which a couple of people here have asked me about. They're OK with their shows being distributed in a lossless format via server or bittorrent.

Well okay, let's get to it! I love me some Over the Rhine!

http://www.archive.org now opened an Over the Rhine section. The method is a bit tedious, but once it's up there, it's available for the rest of eternity. See if you can contribute.

This is a suggestion to add to these rules, that before a person starts a vine, they should know how to make a cdr of a show.

I've recently gotten vines where the cdr's have gaps between all the tracks. This is just stupid to pass along shows that are like this.

Shows can be tracked out with CD Wave, which doesn't add gaps to your show, then burned DAO (Disc At Once) so there are no gaps added to your show. If you don't know if your burner can burn DAO, please check settings with the burning software you use. If you can't burn at DAO don't offer any vines up, period!!

Nothing pisses me off more than someone who doesn't know what they're doing, plus I have to waste my time & extra discs to fix & reburn these shows when they could've been done right to begin with!!



End of rant for now.



shane

Easy there Shane, this is not a forum for audio professionals and we were newbies once ourselves!

But your point is well taken, I've added your advice to the main Rules section above.

how sad this is.

i was just scrolling though here and noticed how few vines are offered, mainly because a few people, no matter how much prodding and follow-up just simply wouldn't follow the rules and simply copy and turn them around in a reasonable amount of time. a few deadbeats screwed up a good thing for so many. sad.

at one time there were as many as 4-5 pages of shows offered up here and now there's 5 or 6 recent shows total. it just seems sad. i know keith tried to follow-up and help with a lot of policing, effort and had some success but it was a lot of effort and time consuming. but, at least he tried. i know i personally and several others just stopped offering stuff and gave up. too bad.

unfortunately, i have no real solution to offer. just an observation.

hmm in response Bill I think the best solution is archive.org... I know I love being able to download the shows at my leisure and not having to wait for cds in the mail is nice... still to upload is time consuming *sigh* at least a few of us are reliable .. and I hope will still trade or share for those of us who can't always get to a show and love having the live recordings...